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John 21 "Do you love me more than these?" - 5/17/2010 6:17:37 PM
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vanguy452
Posts: 18
Joined: 11/23/2008
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I'm preparing a message on John 21:15ff, the conversation between Jesus and Peter that begins "Do you love me more than these?"
Jesus repeats this three times as we all know. Often I have heard ministers differentiate between agape and phileo, two terms for love that are used interchangeably in this conversation. I've wondered if there is really any significance to the change in usage here. The terms are used somewhat indifferently in the New Testament. The idea that agape is a higher form of love than phileo doesn't always hold true. Both can be used of the love of the Father for the Son, and agapao seems to denote false love in 2 Timothy 4:10, describing there Demas' love for this present world! So one form of love may or may not be higher than another.
What occurs to me, however, is that, though we have the NT in Greek, is it not likely that Jesus and Peter were actually speaking Aramaic? I don't mean to open any controversy, but this seems to be likely. If that is the case, then, are there different words for love in Aramaic that reflect any distinction in the quality of love?
_____________________________
Serve one another in love, Galatians 5:13
Garry Fisher
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RE: John 21 "Do you love me more than these?" - 5/18/2010 10:02:35 AM
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Dan Vellinga
Posts: 20
Joined: 6/10/2007
From: Bowling Green, Ohio
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Dear Gary,
I think you make some strong points regarding the language Jesus used in his conversation with Peter, and that there is a certain overlap in the usage of the words "agapao" and "phileo". Because of that, the case that Jesus is probing the extent of Peter's devotion or issuing a challenge to him can be overstated, but I wouldn't disregard it completely. If my understanding is correct, the former emphasized a love that does not depend on circumstance of reciprocity (or in the case of Demas, did not have eyes open to reality) and the other emphasized the love of family and close friends. Even though the language was probably Aramaic and not koine Greek during the actual conversation, there is a case made that Jerusalem and environs was (and is) very cosmopolitan and multilingual and Matthew (or the translator if Matthew wrote the original in Aramaic) would have understood the nuances between the two Greek words. So I think you could still argue that Jesus was asking if Peter loved him without condition, Peter noted, rightly, that he is not capable of the love that God, through Christ, gives to him. When Jesus questions the love Peter has of Jesus, that of family, He gives a challenge to His disciples that the rest of us disciples should ponder. Do we understand the perfect love Christ has of us? How deeply do we love Him?
Hope all goes well with the sermon
Dan Vellinga
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RE: John 21 "Do you love me more than these?" - 5/18/2010 11:08:19 AM
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SD Jones
Posts: 45
Joined: 4/3/2005
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Hi Garry,
I had a great professor for John and for Corinthians. Not that such a thing necessarily proves one's case or not. However, John in particular uses phileo and agape freely and interchangeably with one another, as was the custom throughout the Greek speaking world at the time. By the time John wrote this, much of the nuance between the words had dissolved (contra my good friend Dan's statement) So the overstatement of their differences is a retroactive insertion by later commentators, or so it seems to me. The best explanation I have heard is not that Jesus is differentiating kinds of love to capitulate to Peter's needs and abilities, but rather he is reversing the 3 denials of Peter at Jesus' trial. But that interpretation can also be overstated. The other way I think of it is that 3s are always binding in John, particularly, and Scripture generally. When a thing is spoken three times, it is as good as a promise made. I have no idea about the Aramaic, but would be interested to find out as well. Dan's comments are also good, and I recognize mine stand in contradistinction to his. It is at least yet one more perspective on the verses. I think it is also significant it is happening during breakfast after the resurrection. The act of love itself expressed by the visit ascends beyond human definitions.
Peace!
Seth
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How many roads must a man walk down before he is run over by an 18-wheeler of truth?
Stephen Colbert
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RE: John 21 "Do you love me more than these?" - 5/19/2010 9:07:44 AM
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Dan Vellinga
Posts: 20
Joined: 6/10/2007
From: Bowling Green, Ohio
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Dear Seth,
What! Differences of opinion in biblical interpretation?!! This requires a duel!
I suggest pistols at dawn, which should cause you no consternation whatsoever, because:
A-firing a shot toward the State of Maine from Ohio means that bullet has a long, long ways to go.
B-My aim is lousy anyway.
Garry-We would love to read the sermon and how it was received once you're finished, if you have time. I would defer to Seth, if I were you.
Dan
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